I'm just curious to see what you think. We've been having a huge debate over this issue, as well as what Marxism really 'is', on the Richarddawkins.net forum.

Well if you consider Marxism to be the absolute lack of property, and the only incentive to work is working for the good of man. Then yes. It is a load of nonsense.

If you consider Marxism to be anything else then you are convoluting it into something that would be named something entirely different, and it most likely also is a load of nonsense.

Not nonsense, but utopia that disregards/overlooks everything that does not fit into the desired picture of how a society should work.

quote:

Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
Not nonsense, but utopia that disregards/overlooks everything that does not fit into the desired picture of how a society should work.

Not to mention basic human nature.

quote:

Originally posted by -GhOst-:
Well if you consider Marxism to be the absolute lack of property, and the only incentive to work is working for the good of man. Then yes. It is a load of nonsense.

Marxism is neither of that.

quote:

If you consider Marxism to be anything else then you are convoluting it into something that would be named something entirely different, and it most likely also is a load of nonsense.

No, then you admit that you don't exactly know what marxism is about and either drop the subject or go study it.

quote:

Originally posted by ZombieApocalypse:

quote:

Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
Not nonsense, but utopia that disregards/overlooks everything that does not fit into the desired picture of how a society should work.

Not to mention basic human nature.

This is the main thing being overlooked. Next, the nature of the society. Next, misunderstanding the magnitude of religion and family in human's life. And by religion, I don't mean being affiliated with any established religious organization.

Now if you're REALLY looking for "idealistic nonsense", you'd do well to unite Marxist socio-economics with Discordian philosophy. You get your idealism, and you get your nonsense, wrapped up nice and tight like a well-made burrito.

But Discordianism is impossible to take seriously.

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Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
But Discordianism is impossible to take seriously.

I think a Discordian would tell you that only a Greyface would take Discordianism, or anything else, seriously.

Um no, a Grayface is a special character, not just someone who takes something seriously.

Would you mind telling me what you guys think Marxism is? what it entitles? what it means?

I've found that people have a lot of misinformed ideas about what constitutes the philosophy of Marxism, so I just wanted to see what you guys have gathered so far about the subject itself.

quote:

Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
Um no, a Grayface is a special character, not just someone who takes something seriously.

There was A Greyface (an especially malcontented, hunchbrained dude), most certainly, at one time. He was responsible for The Curse of Greyface and the Introduction of Negativism. His followers may also be referred to as "greyface". This is true, because I read it in a book somewhere. It looked something like:

quote:

TO PERFORM THE TURKEY CURSE:
Take a foot stance as if you were John L. Sullivan preparing for fisticuffs. Face the
particular greyface you wish to short-circuit, or towards the direction of the
negative aneristic vibration that you wish to neutralize. Begin by waving your
arms in any elaborate manner and make motions with your hands as though you
were Mandrake feeling up a sexy giantess. Chant, loudly and clearly:
GOBBLE, GOBBLE, GOBBLE, GOBBLE, GOBBLE!



The results will be instantly apparent.

But it's ok, because everything is true. Even false things.

quote:

Originally posted by Nihilis:
Would you mind telling me what you guys think Marxism is? what it entitles? what it means?

I've found that people have a lot of misinformed ideas about what constitutes the philosophy of Marxism, so I just wanted to see what you guys have gathered so far about the subject itself.

Classical Marxism only, ok? So that we won't get lost in later developments and various "ism"-s that stemmed from Marx's and Engel's views.

So, in a nutshell: Marxism is about materialistic understanding of history (not to confuse with Mechanical Materialism that existed before Marx or Dialectical materialism because Marx or Engels never used that term, it was invented later by George Plekhanov), material production as a basis for history, and the leading role of proletariat in changing the world (to the better, of course). Bettering the world goes like this: proletariat appropriates capital from exploiters, centralizes means of production in the hands of the government (which is proletariat itself being a ruling class), and increases the sum of the productive forces as quickly as possible. This is called "dictatorship of the proletariat" and is a necessary transitional state of things, followed by abolition of all classes. In that transition, democracy is redefined as a privilege of the proletariat first and foremost, then of those who support or sympathizes with the proletariat who must be a majority, or the whole thing won't work. Exploiters are denied the privilege of partaking in democracy by simply being exploiters. Wrong upbringing, bad luck.

Once the classes are abolished, an individual is reunified with the society, so he/she works for the better of the whole society, and the society replicates with the same concern about making it better for the individual. In that completely utopian state, an individual is seen as totally liberated from all artificial ties and forms of alienation that any society based on classes imposes on their members. You get your heaven right here, on earth, and it is up to you to preserve and better it. Keep in mind though, that on a philosophical level, society takes priority over the individual because an individual is seen first and foremost a sum of social relations.

Communism is a final goal towards which the theory of Marxism works, closing the circle started with primitive societies, abolishing private property in the means of production (not to confuse with private property as in ownership, using, consumption of property), but on a much higher level. No classes, no hierarchy, no antagonism, all men brothers, and so on. No ha ha funny, unlike with Discordianism. Dead serious and usually executed by dead serious people who are as open minded and mindful of existing environment as a train following the rails at high speed.

Marxism as a philosophical, political, or economical theory has very little to do with various official ideologies of Marxism lauded to the skies in USSR, post-WWII Eastern Europe or an other country. Those are dogmatized, vulgar, self-serving interpretations of Marxism.

quote:

Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
unlike with Discordianism. Dead serious and usually executed by dead serious people who are as open minded and mindful of existing environment as a train following the rails at high speed.

They could stand to learn a thing or two from the followers of Eris. Step 1: Abolish hot dog buns.