LONDON (Reuters) - Fortune-tellers, mediums and spiritual healers marched on the home of the British prime minister at Downing Street on Friday to protest against new laws they fear will lead to them being "persecuted and prosecuted."
Organizers say that replacing the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 with new consumer protection rules will remove key legal protection for "genuine" mediums.
They think skeptics might bring malicious prosecutions to force spiritualists to prove in court that they can heal people, see into the future or talk to the dead.
Psychics also fear they will have to give disclaimers describing their services as entertainment or as scientific experiments with unpredictable results.
"If I'm giving a healing to someone, I don't want to have to stand there and say I don't believe in what I'm doing," said Carole McEntee-Taylor, a healer who co-founded the Spiritual Workers Association.
The group delivered a petition with 5,000 names to the prime minister's office, although Gordon Brown is away in the United States.
With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.
But many don't see the funny side. They say the new rules will shift the responsibility of proving they are not frauds from prosecutors and onto them.
"By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."
The government said the new regulations form part of a European Union directive that is meant to harmonize unfair trading laws across the EU. It will introduce a ban on traders "treating consumers unfairly."
The British Humanist Association, a charity which campaigns against religion and supernatural beliefs, said stricter regulations were overdue because the current laws don't work.
"It is misleading for spiritualists to claim that, as religious' practitioners they should not be regulated under consumer laws," said Chief Executive Hanne Stinson.
"The psychic industry is huge and lucrative and it exploits some very vulnerable, and some very gullible, people with claims for which there is no scientific evidence."
With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.
this part made me laugh.
But onto the real issue, the spiritualists/mediums etc say they fear that they will be prosecuted for practicing their religion. If a customer of a psychic service is not pleased with the service he or she has paid for it will become easier under new EU laws to file a complaint and sue the psychic in question. The psychic can then be asked in court to prove that their powers are real. Needless to say Psychics aren't pleased with this turn of events and fear 'malicious' prosecution by skeptics or that they will have to give out clear disclaimers before a session.
In light of the fact that whether or not psychic powers are real, both sides tend to agree that there are a lot of frauds out there who prey on the emotional vulnerability of the bereaved. (But do tell me if you don't agree with this)
Do you think legislation is a good way to deal with this issue? Or do you feel something else needs to be done to stop the seemingly endless flow of fraudulent psychics.
----------------------------------- Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works. [Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World]
Then Catholic exorcists should be affected by a similar Act too, as well as anyone who performs services based on a religious belief. Otherwise, it's not a fair game.
I don't believe it's prosecution as the number of complaints from those who were taken advantage of by a slimy psychics is higher than from those who could not be cured by exorcists or from any other group. More likely, lawmakers followed the biggest noise and proposed a law that deals with the source of it and with nothing else. It's a short sighting, not persecution.
On the other hand, the moment one mixes religion with money matters, he/she steps on the same thin ice every business is walking on and should have his/her paperwork prepared accordingly. If drawing a disclaimer and making the customer sign it before reading is too much for a psychic to bear, then too bad so sad. Like with any business, excessive paperwork is no pleasure for anyone and it can freak out some customers. But do tell me at least one reason why a psychic or anyone who charges money for similar services should have it easier than the next business person down the street.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
I am speaking as a skeptic here. That's not to say that I don't believe there aren't any demons/ghosties/goblins/etc that spiritualists/mediums can work on. I just feel that the majority of them are slimy con-artists. I went to a "psychic" at the Rockland County Fair a while back. My mother - who was frightened of those sorts of things (as that could allow a demon to enter your soul! Thoughts of a good ol' Catholic girl!), but I plunked down my $5 and gave this lady my palm to read. She went on about how I'm going to have a long, wonderful, successful life. I'd make my money as a writer. She said I'd be married when I was 21. Problem? I was already 25 --- and for the record, not married (at least not that I know of...!)
The only "fly" in CoffeeOwl's cuppa joe there is that there are not many Catholic exorcisms taking place anymore. Of course, I can only go on the official reports of the church for that information, but to the best of my research and knowledge, it is not a commonly practiced thing anymore - especially with the advent of psychology. There's such a laundry list of procedures and rules for getting one "qualified" for an exorcism that it's really pretty rare that someone does qualify. Not to say it never happens - just it's rare.
Whereas these "psychic" and such can be found very easily. I often drive by a number of houses that advertise a "psychic" with "Tarot" readings inside. I often wonder if this "psychic" knows that I'm just going to drive by....
...okay, that was an old joke. Sorry 'bout that! But there are "psychics" and all sorts of "mediums" and such - and the majority of them are out to make a buck. There is some science to the way they ask questions, say a line, or something that they can seemingly pull info out of their arse about you. But you are giving them the information they need... I know I've heard some people who I know are not psychic do it to strangers...there is some trick to it.
And, just a question from a dummy here: exactly how is it persecution of a "religious" minority? As I understand psychics/mediums/spiritualists/etc, they are not of any specific religious faith. Some are Catholic, some Christian, some Jewish, some pagan, yada yada yada.
If I were so "gifted" with powers, I would certainly want to weed out the "bad eggs" who cause my profession to get a bad reputation. If that meant having clients sign a waiver, so be it. You know, when you get wheeled into surgery in the US, you have to sign paperwork. Before you do most anything, you will have some paperwork to sign to cover someone's arse. It's the litigious nature of this world - you have to be well-informed of everything before you can proceed. And it should be no different for the "gifted".
Posts: 1092 | Location: middle of nowhere, NY | Registered: April 05, 2006
You raise valid points sharon. I too frowned when they called themselves a religion. As to the tricks that psychics employ the most common is called Cold Reading, there is ample information to be found on this subject on the Internet.
My own personal opinion is that it's about time that it becomes easier to sick the law on fraudulent psychics as most of them are nothing but vultures praying on people's hopes and grief. As these are EU laws I hope they will become implemented in my own country as well soon as more and more psychics keep popping up. Offering advice and "aid" at often high prices.
----------------------------------- Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works. [Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World]
Originally posted by sharonkateri: The only "fly" in CoffeeOwl's cuppa joe there is that there are not many Catholic exorcisms taking place anymore. Of course, I can only go on the official reports of the church for that information, but to the best of my research and knowledge, it is not a commonly practiced thing anymore - especially with the advent of psychology. There's such a laundry list of procedures and rules for getting one "qualified" for an exorcism that it's really pretty rare that someone does qualify. Not to say it never happens - just it's rare.
Yes, official Vatican denies any of that. But the same official Vatican once posted about dramatic shrinking of numbers of nuns, then disproved itself. Politics, like with anything organized and structured. Especially when right-wing formations (with which Vatican would rather not identify itself)) get stronger. *carefully transfers the fly into Sharon's cup*
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Whereas these "psychic" and such can be found very easily. I often drive by a number of houses that advertise a "psychic" with "Tarot" readings inside. I often wonder if this "psychic" knows that I'm just going to drive by....
Naturally. One does not have to go through a rigorous process to open an entertainment business. But exorcists get paid too, yet they are not questioned about effectiveness of their practice. They are still there, covered by the Church, earning money for something that can be a fraud too. And touting their horn about the dire need for their services.
BTW, in Russia a healer soon may have to get a certificate that confirms his/her skills before opening a business - by providing case studies that show real results and answering a set of questions to prove that he/she won't harm people and knows at least the basics of anatomy and physiology.
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But there are "psychics" and all sorts of "mediums" and such - and the majority of them are out to make a buck. There is some science to the way they ask questions, say a line, or something that they can seemingly pull info out of their arse about you. But you are giving them the information they need... I know I've heard some people who I know are not psychic do it to strangers...there is some trick to it.
All that does happen, but how does a psychic make you "see" a past life? What info a customer has to provide for that to happen?
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And, just a question from a dummy here: exactly how is it persecution of a "religious" minority? As I understand psychics/mediums/spiritualists/etc, they are not of any specific religious faith. Some are Catholic, some Christian, some Jewish, some pagan, yada yada yada.
Probably because reading/healing/clairvoyance are all occult practices that go against mainstream religions which are seen as oppressors. Comparing to Pagans an those who don't follow any single path, there are not that many Christians and Jews in this field. And just like Christians go all "aaah! evil" when occultists are mentioned, the occultist cry "religious persecution!" whenever someone tries to regulate them. Stereotypes and high sensitivity, you know.
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If I were so "gifted" with powers, I would certainly want to weed out the "bad eggs" who cause my profession to get a bad reputation. If that meant having clients sign a waiver, so be it. You know, when you get wheeled into surgery in the US, you have to sign paperwork. Before you do most anything, you will have some paperwork to sign to cover someone's arse. It's the litigious nature of this world - you have to be well-informed of everything before you can proceed. And it should be no different for the "gifted".
Exactly. But for some people the need to draw a paper is like a slap on the face. On another forum I belong to, there recently was a discussion about whether a contract is needed for a web designer. Mind you, the necessity of this mundane paper in a very mundane business can go against one's life philosophy and will imply from the get go that the prospective client is dishonest and can't be trusted by a designer. Maybe for mediums and healers it means something similar - going by mutual trust and goodwill as a preferred way to do business.
One more thought on the article: everything cited from protesters was about them, not their customers. When the focus is set like this, self-defense mechanisms go into full gear very easily. Once they are on, logic quits, and it's all about "poor me."
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
going by mutual trust and goodwill as a preferred way to do business.
Trust and good-will? In today's world? Too risky. I went to a carwash this past weekend. At lunchtime. Guess all the workers must've stepped out for lunch without checking with each other first, because 4 cars rear-ended each other coming out on the other side! And one poor schlub was left meticulously drying this old, beat up car (I gather from the conversation tone that it was a friend of the guy!) Fortunately, I was the 5th car to go in - unfortunately, they had to shut the wash down for about an hour to straighten out the mess that had been created!
The "need" for a contract is to protect both consumer and business-person. As a business person, you write down exactly what you will do for the consumer, and the consumer puts down exactly what you will get for your services. If either end does not hold up to his/her/their end of the agreement, there will be heck to pay. It'd be nice to be able to trust that someone purchasing your services will live up to what they say they will do, but then they could turn around and say that you didn't do what you said, and refuse to pay you! It's ALWAYS safer to put it in writing.
***Sharonkateri enlists the aid of her trusty feline sidekick Tessa to handle that darned fly in her coffee - where'd that come from?!! ***
How can a medium make one see a past life? Merely the power of suggestion could make one think they see something that's not really there. Personally, I do believe in past lives (as there are stories out there that do defy explanation). But there are enough charlatans who can utilize hypnosis and implant a thought/scene/suggestion to the person.
Call me a "skeptical believer" --- I do believe in it, but think there's still too much room for fakery in the field.
I knew a priest who's got "Hollywood" ties. Basically, he advises the powers-that-be when they use priests/Catholicism in storylines. I haven't spoken to him in about 7 or 8 years (sadly, I can't even tell you if he's dead or alive - he was an old man way back when!). I recall asking him about exorcism (as that's always something I've been fascinated with - "The Exorcist" is one of my favorite movies of all time!). He's the one who told me about it being rare (but more common before the study of psychology), and that there really weren't many priests qualified to do exorcisms. Those that are qualified are old now (well, much older NOW) --- so it would make sense the church is trying to bolster the number. They're dying off! And according to him, they don't get paid from a person - they are employees of the Church. The person may be "requested" to give a donation to the Church, but it's not mandated. It's like if you called a priest to do Last Rites on someone. Or a funeral or baptism or wedding. You don't "pay" the priest - you "donate" to the church.
I guess that's really a moot point, though - if the money goes to the church, the priest does get it. And there are "suggested amounts"...half dozen of one, six of the other...
Well, also, the person may pay transportation for the priest, and pay for his accommodations as well.
---But you can bet they'll have a contract!---
Posts: 1092 | Location: middle of nowhere, NY | Registered: April 05, 2006
Originally posted by sharonkateri: The "need" for a contract is to protect both consumer and business-person. As a business person, you write down exactly what you will do for the consumer, and the consumer puts down exactly what you will get for your services. If either end does not hold up to his/her/their end of the agreement, there will be heck to pay. It'd be nice to be able to trust that someone purchasing your services will live up to what they say they will do, but then they could turn around and say that you didn't do what you said, and refuse to pay you! It's ALWAYS safer to put it in writing.
FYI, I am strictly against working without a contract, never did that, not even when I just started with my business 9 years ago. But the mentality is out there, and its advocates won't hear any arguments. The thread I mentioned was closed by the moderator because people were going in circles trying to make a believer to see the light. A contract is much more than just putting the business and its customer on the same page. In fact, who does what, for how much, and by what date, is 1/7th of mine. The rest is legal "ass-covering" and listing consequences for breaking this and that.
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***Sharonkateri enlists the aid of her trusty feline sidekick Tessa to handle that darned fly in her coffee - where'd that come from?!! ***
*snickers* BTW, what's the deal with cat's fascination about coffee? Our neighbor's kitty can't stop sniffing my mug; she won't attempt to drink, but I am getting tired from keeping her nose out of it.
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How can a medium make one see a past life? Merely the power of suggestion could make one think they see something that's not really there. Personally, I do believe in past lives (as there are stories out there that do defy explanation). But there are enough charlatans who can utilize hypnosis and implant a thought/scene/suggestion to the person.
Call me a "skeptical believer" --- I do believe in it, but think there's still too much room for fakery in the field.
Sure there are charlatans, I don't argue that. In every field that is not tightly regulated, there are plenty of them, even if the field does not deal with supernatural. Search engine optimization would be one of those fields. No strict regulations besides what search engines endorse, plenty of scambags, plenty of false information and burnt out customers. I doubt that the problem will be solved even with the most strict regulations though. It's too tempting to rake in money from unsuspecting people - just like with readings and healing. So back on topic: my friend had two psychics who were very unlikely to know each other tell her roughly the same info about her past in this and previous lives. They were both pointing to her ties to Native Americans and both were saying that something did not quite add up with that. Well, she was from Siberia, and part of her real was of local tribes whose ancestors are believed to migrate to North America and become first Native Americans. Understandably, psychics are not supposed to be well versed in theories of ancient migrations.
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I knew a priest who's got "Hollywood" ties. Basically, he advises the powers-that-be when they use priests/Catholicism in storylines. I haven't spoken to him in about 7 or 8 years (sadly, I can't even tell you if he's dead or alive - he was an old man way back when!). I recall asking him about exorcism (as that's always something I've been fascinated with - "The Exorcist" is one of my favorite movies of all time!). He's the one who told me about it being rare (but more common before the study of psychology), and that there really weren't many priests qualified to do exorcisms. Those that are qualified are old now (well, much older NOW) --- so it would make sense the church is trying to bolster the number. They're dying off! And according to him, they don't get paid from a person - they are employees of the Church. The person may be "requested" to give a donation to the Church, but it's not mandated. It's like if you called a priest to do Last Rites on someone. Or a funeral or baptism or wedding. You don't "pay" the priest - you "donate" to the church.
I guess that's really a moot point, though - if the money goes to the church, the priest does get it. And there are "suggested amounts"...half dozen of one, six of the other...
That's right. And I am yet to see people not donating.
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Well, also, the person may pay transportation for the priest, and pay for his accommodations as well.
---But you can bet they'll have a contract!---
Priests? They do?? Well, I always had a healthy respect to how the Church approaches its business endeavors - marketing, training, and everything. One can learn from it.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
Re: the furball - having been Tessa's human slave for the last 3+ years, I have learned there's no keepin' her nose outta anything! It's not worth the trouble, as she gets in there anyway. One night, I was eating a microwaved pasta dinner, and I looked away for about 10 seconds, and I felt fur rubbing on my arm - when I looked back, here's the cat, looking at me as if to say, "What's wrong? I didn't do nothing..." --- with two pieces of penne pasta sticking out of her mouth like two TUSKS! Now, I just set her up with a little sample-plate of whatever I'm having. Except if I get "Garlic and Oil spaghetti" take-out for dinner --- I can't go through another 3 AM close-range "MEOW" with garlic-tuna breath! (ICK!)
And you are right - I have yet to see someone "not donate" either (but I do know some people "whittled" the "suggested" amount down...)
(And, the part about priests having contracts --- just kidding! D'oh! After all that typin' away, I'd forgotten that a priest would probably get some sort of reimbursement from a family to cover certain expenses such as hotels and transportation.)
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...my friend had two psychics who were very unlikely to know each other tell her roughly the same info about her past in this and previous lives. They were both pointing to her ties to Native Americans and both were saying that something did not quite add up with that. Well, she was from Siberia, and part of her real was of local tribes whose ancestors are believed to migrate to North America and become first Native Americans. Understandably, psychics are not supposed to be well versed in theories of ancient migrations.
And this is why I'm a skeptical believer. Your friend may have hit into a legitimate thing with these two psychics. And I do believe in past lives and the like. But, a psychic would have to show me something that defies explanation - such as your friend's case. Two separate psychics coming to the same conclusion? That's a little hard to fake (unless they're working in "co-hoots" with each other, which there's no reason to believe that from the story here...).
In psychology, there's something called a "false memory syndrome." It's where the shrink knowingly or unknowingly says or does something to impart a thought/feeling/etc that implies that a client has had a certain "memory recall" - although that event never happened. Say a female child is raised with only her father (no mother present). Child grows up, and finds her way into therapy (has trouble getting along with other women, let's say for argument's sake). The therapist might push the issue of her being raised by a dad only (and let's say the therapist has an "agenda" about sexually abused children), and get the female child to admit that the father touched her "private area" and, based on "societal norms" that is no good --- however, the reality of what happened to the little girl was the girl hurt herself riding on a bike, and the father was looking to make sure it was only a minor injury! Innocent situation, misread by a therapist and made to be something unthinkable!
A client in therapy can be a very vulnerable target for a false memory. Can also happen merely because the client wants to please the therapist, and thinks that by saying this awful thing happened that it will make the therapist "like" him/her.
Equally, a charlatan in the field of psychic powers can utilize the same techniques - implant a thought during a hypnosis session, or a scene or image of something - and you very well may have a client fooled into believing whatever the charlatan wants. OR, the client wants to please the counselor that he/she will say anything and will manufacture that memory.
Like I said - be a skeptical believer too. Believe in it, but be aware that some people are out to rip you off!
Posts: 1092 | Location: middle of nowhere, NY | Registered: April 05, 2006
Originally posted by sharonkateri: Re: the furball - having been Tessa's human slave for the last 3+ years, I have learned there's no keepin' her nose outta anything! It's not worth the trouble, as she gets in there anyway. One night, I was eating a microwaved pasta dinner, and I looked away for about 10 seconds, and I felt fur rubbing on my arm - when I looked back, here's the cat, looking at me as if to say, "What's wrong? I didn't do nothing..." --- with two pieces of penne pasta sticking out of her mouth like two TUSKS! Now, I just set her up with a little sample-plate of whatever I'm having. Except if I get "Garlic and Oil spaghetti" take-out for dinner --- I can't go through another 3 AM close-range "MEOW" with garlic-tuna breath! (ICK!)
lol! But that's the thing: Nigora does not eat human food, nor does she drinks human beverages. And my coffee is hot, I don't want any scalded kitty noses around here. I merely want to have my coffee without black fur in it (Nigora is shedding like crazy right now) and without huge amber eyes looking at me like I am out of my mind for drinking THAT.
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And this is why I'm a skeptical believer. Your friend may have hit into a legitimate thing with these two psychics. And I do believe in past lives and the like. But, a psychic would have to show me something that defies explanation - such as your friend's case. Two separate psychics coming to the same conclusion? That's a little hard to fake (unless they're working in "co-hoots" with each other, which there's no reason to believe that from the story here...).
Those two live on opposite shores of US, so I doubt they ever met or talked to each other. But my friend encountered plenty of scams in her years of searching for the right person to give her the answers. BTW, her father is a shaman.
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In psychology, there's something called a "false memory syndrome."
Right. But I am not sure if a psychic goes a full-scale therapy session before telling the client anything. On the other hand, how else a charlatan would get a clue?
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Like I said - be a skeptical believer too. Believe in it, but be aware that some people are out to rip you off!
*shrug* I am a skeptical believer. The fact the a trial and error process is almost inevitable when dealing with this field makes me rather unwilling to try anything like that. Not that I am particularly interested in someone telling me my past or future or reasons behind any of that. A healer was recommended to me once for my allergies, and that's the only one I worked with. I got it pretty bad and can't use most of the meds because of severe side effects. Mind you, it helped to a certain degree, but then I moved to US and he stayed in Russia, so the process was never completed. I never felt adventurous enough to go on my own search at the new place despite some recommendations. The referrers were giving me a wrong vibe.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
Right. But I am not sure if a psychic goes a full-scale therapy session before telling the client anything. On the other hand, how else a charlatan would get a clue?
---Okay - now I get what you're asking there! (Give me a little time; nasty freakin' head cold with hay fever...1 weekend in bed, and I'm rarin' to go again!)
For a psychology session, well - it would be a long session, and a shady shrink could find a number of things to "implant" to explain away a phobia or "tic" or whatever.
But, for a "psychic" --- you wouldn't really need anything. Take me - I have a fear of drowning. Now, I can give you my rationalization for it (when I was about 11, my cousin/best friend Tommy drowned in a rafting accident in a local stream - since then, I have had that fear - strangely enough, I can go on a boat-ride and be on top of deep water - just don't put me IN the deep water without aid!). All a psychic would need though, is my basic fear. He/she could then concoct a whole story about how in a previous life, I was on the TITANIC, or was drowned as a witch ( )* or whatever. Or, they don't even need that! Just looking at something on you, they could state how you were part of Egyptian royalty, or English aristocracy, or whatever (as you know, everyone would love to hear something like that! That they had power/wealth/influence at one time...). Psychic just needs imagination to come up with a story.
*Actually, this begs the question: I often hear about witches' covens and such being located up towards Salem, MA. Ain't that where they burned witches and such in the olden days? Isn't that tempting fate a bit? I mean, I'm Irish Catholic, but you don't see me runnin' off to move to Northern Ireland! They made it pretty clear long ago that they don't want my kind there, so I ain't goin'! ---Just kidding, just kidding! (I've just got to be evil! )
Back to your posting here --- your dealings with a healer. Funny you should mention that. My friend "M" - I know I've mentioned him before (had stroke when he was 7, left side paralyzed, etc...). He suffers from epilepsy, too (as if everything else wasn't enough!). Since he was a kid, he's been on all sorts of meds for seizures...and even with all those chemicals, he'd still have 7-10 MAJOR seizures a week. About 5 years ago, a friend of his who practices "alternative medicine" (including healing crystals and accu-pressure) gave him a quartz rock to carry in his pocket, and she told him to stop all the meds. He figured, "What do I have to lose? I'll have 15 seizures? What the heck..." Do you know now, he'll go several weeks without ANY seizures at all, then 1 week where he'll have a few minor ones, and one or two BIG ones.
Now, how can I ignore results like that? I mean, there may be a "mind over matter" component to the answer as to why it works (as I do believe that the mind has the power to conquer any illness at all!), but in any event, it WORKS for him!
Posts: 1092 | Location: middle of nowhere, NY | Registered: April 05, 2006
is that there are not many Catholic exorcisms taking place anymore. Of course, I can only go on the official reports of the church for that information, but to the best of my research and knowledge, it is not a commonly practiced thing anymore - especially with the advent of psychology. There's such a laundry list of procedures and rules for getting one "qualified" for an exorcism that it's really pretty rare that someone does qualify. Not to say it never happens - just it's rare.
