Anyone else a tad concerned about what that nutjob Jong Il is vowing? He's riling up his troops in Anti-US rallies, threatening nuke attacks, vowing a "fire shower of nuclear retaliation". I hope our leader can get us through this situation. I certainly would feel more comfortable w/ our previous leader dealing with it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...bGsDbmtvcmVhdm93c251

It's very disturbing but also a bit humorous since N. Korea is pretty much surrounded by US allies. We've got S. Korea, Japan, somewhat China, somewhat Taiwan, Thailand, Philippines, somewhat India, *kind of* Russia. You see where I'm going. Granted, not all of these countries are effective military forces but it's doubtful they would hinder any actions we decided to take over there.

quote:

Originally posted by Bam:
It's very disturbing but also a bit humorous since N. Korea is pretty much surrounded by US allies. We've got S. Korea, Japan, somewhat China, somewhat Taiwan, Thailand, Philippines, somewhat India, *kind of* Russia. You see where I'm going. Granted, not all of these countries are effective military forces but it's doubtful they would hinder any actions we decided to take over there.

I fail to see the humor in this. Somewhat is not viable by any means. South Korea is a joke that is never going to have a punchline. Japan does not have any military. China is more likely to attack us than Korea at this point. India has nothing but a lot of people and no way to get over the mountains. Russia could care less what happens to us, they are in political turmoil and fighting their own battles.

North Korea would not exist right now if it were not for the fact that all resistance in that country was from Russian and Chinese troops. We literally snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory when it came to the war. What a joke.

North Korea is a very real threat. Their leader is very crazy. They very much hate us. They have the guns, weapons, an people enough to fight us and cause us a lot of pain.

We have a leader who does not have any idea what he is doing. Captured citizens that have no hope of being rescued. A current senate who in major thinks that the UN is a good thing (which it is not.) And we have a lot of scared people that are hoping to god that Obama does not kill us all.

What was that you were saying in the other thread about fear mongering?

I happen to like our current president and I think he has a lot of good things in store for this country. The problem is too many people seem to think that you can turn an entire country around in the 158 days that he's been in office. Got news for ya! It takes a LOT longer than that! At least he's staying on the job, unlike Bush, who spent a good 40% of his entire presidency on vacation. Hell, the first 8 months, he was on vacation for almost 30% of the time.

Oh, and is everyone forgetting the size difference between our countries? My Gods, it would be like Pennsylvania trying to conquer the whole country. Texas has a larger population than the entirety of North Korea. We have about the same military population (1.4 million) but we have the better technology and training. They can't fight us on our own soil. They may attack a town or two but they can't take the country. They DON'T have the people. They DON'T have the firepower. They can't launch a nuke from N. Korea to here. They can launch at our allies but not here. Yeah, it's a sticky situation and I'm sure that it's high on the priority list but I, for one, am not quaking in my boots over it.

What were you saying in the other thread about bull**** spending?

Yes I think that you can turn a country around quite quickly. Not even a year in many cases, Obama has done just that. He has taken us from shaky ground (yet still more solid than most countries in the world,) and collapsed our foundation beneath us. He spent trillions of dollars in his first few days of office. We got empty promises, higher taxes, higher tuition, and a sense of urgency. Yet, this is not entirely his fault, our congress is a massively horrible monster just spewing poison into the blood of our nation. So yes, a country can be turned around in a few days, which way it goes, however, is to be determined at the time.

But that is all off topic to this thread! My apologies.

North Korea does not need to fight us on our own soil to cause terror and turmoil. Us fighting them in Korea would be very difficult (most especially with this administration/congress). In essence, to accomplish their goals they do not need the people, they do not need the firepower, they do not need to try and take our country.

Do not understatement you're enemy. When we do that, we are sure to land in a mess that we will be hard pressed to get out of, as I see it now we are still in a position of advantage and footing, but one one that is on the edge of quite a slippery slope.

"If you know the enemy, and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every battle won you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." ~ Sun Tzu

quote:

Originally posted by -GhOst-:
Yes I think that you can turn a country around quite quickly. Not even a year in many cases, Obama has done just that. He has taken us from shaky ground (yet still more solid than most countries in the world,) and collapsed our foundation beneath us.

Your foundation started to crumble before Obama. Dollar was loosing value since 2001, and in 2005 I experienced it first hand when I went to Russia to see my family. Before that going on vacation to Russia was a way to save money, despite freer everyday spendings and airfare costs. In 2005 I found out that my $$ are now worth less then last time, and I now need to be very careful about my spendings. Last summer it was like I never left California and in some cases even worse because $$ were exchanged at ever-dropping rates. I mean dropping by the day. Obama was not in the office at that time. It's not Obama, it's exporting much less than importing plus other less significant factors which have been in an unhealthy state for years.

quote:

He spent trillions of dollars in his first few days of office. We got empty promises, higher taxes, higher tuition, and a sense of urgency. Yet, this is not entirely his fault, our congress is a massively horrible monster just spewing poison into the blood of our nation. So yes, a country can be turned around in a few days, which way it goes, however, is to be determined at the time.

You make it sound like Obama took a more or less stable country and ruined it in a matter of months. Some partisan thinking, huh?

quote:

North Korea does not need to fight us on our own soil to cause terror and turmoil. Us fighting them in Korea would be very difficult (most especially with this administration/congress). In essence, to accomplish their goals they do not need the people, they do not need the firepower, they do not need to try and take our country.

You have examples of successful fighting in other countries with a different administration? Examples please.

quote:

Do not understatement you're enemy. When we do that, we are sure to land in a mess that we will be hard pressed to get out of, as I see it now we are still in a position of advantage and footing, but one one that is on the edge of quite a slippery slope.

"If you know the enemy, and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every battle won you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." ~ Sun Tzu

Estimating anything and anyone should be done based on facts and with real care for the good of your own country. Otherwise US will find themselves in another Iraq. I suggest you quit US news stream for a while and turn to something else, like BBC or Asian news (there is plenty of them published in English). You will be amazed at how different the picture looks over there, how it is not solely about US. And it is even more amazing that after years of succumbing to fear mongering and getting into so many terrible messes people are still advocating that the whole world is out to get US, and there is a dire need to go abroad and start another war.

Beyond the many "wars" we fought against the native American tribes.

Mexican-American war - Polk
Spanish-American war - McKinley
Philippine-American war - McKinley
World War 1 - Wilson (though we came in late here)
World War 2 - Roosevelt/Truman
Vietnam - Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon
Cambodia - Johnson/Nixon
Grenada - Regan
Panama - H.W. Bush
Cold War - Many

We won Vietnam in a military and technical sense. We lost at home. We all won the cold war, no one got nuked.

There are more that are claimed to be victories, but I think the major ones are now listed here.

I agree estimations should be done with care. Also they should be made using information gather by spying and espionage. What we have seen from North Korea (and upcoming Iran) is enough that we should be on our guard and looking deeply into the issues. This is not a time to ignore them. I do feel that it will come down to one of three things. We attack someone and start a war. Another country attacks someone and we help. Or we get attack and must fight a war. Peace does not appear to be an option.

quote:

Originally posted by -GhOst-:
Beyond the many "wars" we fought against the native American tribes.

What that has to do with my question?

quote:

Mexican-American war - Polk
Spanish-American war - McKinley
Philippine-American war - McKinley
World War 1 - Wilson (though we came in late here)
World War 2 - Roosevelt/Truman
Vietnam - Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon
Cambodia - Johnson/Nixon
Grenada - Regan
Panama - H.W. Bush
Cold War - Many

Half of the list if not more is wrong.

Mexican-American war brought to life the Southern rebellion movement. And it put the young republic on the same level as European colonial empires. Some success.

The next two were another cases of unjust annexations of someone else's territory. Again, some success. The Philippine–American War was not even recognized as an official war by the US government.

US didn't single-handedly win any of WWs. That never happened. US participation in both wars was limited to financial help and trade/lease services for years, the country was not a leading force in a single defining battle of the WWI or WWII, and you don't win any wars without winning big battles. US military contributions to both wars were not the biggest in comparison to those of other allies either. And you have the audacity to say that US won both.

There was no such thing as an US war on Cambodia. Cambodia was having it's civil war, US intervened while it was still there dealing with Vietnam, and left after unsuccessfully fighting Khmers. It ceased all operations and evacuated the embassy personal. How does this constitute a success?

Grenada was a success, ok. And Panama... there was so much destruction brought by US military on civilians that I can't call it a success. US citizens there were protected all right, but the cost for natives was too high. The rest of the goals as Bush Sr. formulated them were never reached - democracy was not established, drugs are still trafficking through, and so on.

quote:

We won Vietnam in a military and technical sense. We lost at home.

You lost right there, in Vietnam. Deal with it. It was a lost war, and no amount of creative apologetics will change that fact.

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We all won the cold war, no one got nuked.

Right.

quote:

I agree estimations should be done with care. Also they should be made using information gather by spying and espionage. What we have seen from North Korea (and upcoming Iran) is enough that we should be on our guard and looking deeply into the issues. This is not a time to ignore them. I do feel that it will come down to one of three things. We attack someone and start a war. Another country attacks someone and we help. Or we get attack and must fight a war. Peace does not appear to be an option.

You can't ignore anyone nowadays - the world grew too small for that. But between US and immediate neighbors of North Korea guess who has more reasons to be concerned. North Korean army is reported to be large but poorly equipped and trained, the country's economy has been in the state of stagnation for years, it has no allies - how do you think they would be able to endure a war? Spying let US down more than once already, most spectacularly in Iraq, and not because US is so bad with it but because it can be used to justify anything and everything, and the general public will eat it up. So far most US-generated information on the matter falls into the hysteria category.

quote:

Originally posted by CoffeeOwl:
You can't ignore anyone nowadays - the world grew too small for that. But between US and immediate neighbors of North Korea guess who has more reasons to be concerned. North Korean army is reported to be large but poorly equipped and trained, the country's economy has been in the state of stagnation for years, it has no allies - how do you think they would be able to endure a war? Spying let US down more than once already, most spectacularly in Iraq, and not because US is so bad with it but because it can be used to justify anything and everything, and the general public will eat it up. So far most US-generated information on the matter falls into the hysteria category.

While that is a really good point, what worries me is its the things we don't anticipate that happen when we least expect it. Like 9/11 for example. Complacency does not work though, look at what happened in the few years before 9/11. It will be interesting to see how the next few years play out.

Complacency has long been a government-supported facet of life in this country, they want you complacent so they can **** you anyway they can. "Buy more **** you don't need." "Eat this big heart attack in a bag and get fat." "Don't you worry about foreign affairs, we've got it."

That is EXACTLY the **** that lead to 9/11, the public as a whole is too damn weak-minded, too dumbed down by the schools and the teachers who play doctor and diagnose a kid with ADD and give them Ritalin, so they don't question authority and question motives of people.

I feel so pissed that people have been cheated in this country. We know nothing, that the WHOLE rest of the world knows more about this country than we do. Read al-jazeera, BBC, or voanews.com and these people have it right on, but these ****in people in this country, are so in the pocket of the government, that if they stepped out of line, the FCC could impose sanctions on trumped up **** and yank the license. So everyone fears everything.

I think its atrocious also that instead of focusing on the Iraq War, we focused on gay marriage and "why it's wrong", Janet's tit on tv, scores of reality tv shows, and other bull**** that led us into a score of zombified ****sticks who don't question a damn thing. We need more questioning, we need more awake people, and we need to stop watching this ****ing junk like American Idol, and America's Got Talent, we need more shows like we used to have, some great groundbreaking sitcoms that weren't afraid to tackle some issues. Where is a Cosby Show, or Golden Girls.

Give me some TV that's an escape, but still informational. Instead of just dick, fart and sex jokes.

I can very confidently say that pretty much everything you named in your post is not the fault of the government (ooh how we love to blame others) but the fault of the people. The information is out there. No one chooses to educate themselves.

We take our kid to the doctor because it's constantly bugging us and acting an ass. The doctor says "OK, ADD. Here's drugs." We gladly take the drug, pump it into our kids and say, "Well, it's not MY fault, he's got ADD." But does anyone stop to question that maybe, JUST MAYBE, the parents aren't doing their job and paying enough attention or giving enough stability and foundation in the home?

We complain because there's loads of reality TV crap on all the time. So we resign to watch it because, obviously, there's nothing else to do. It's not OUR fault. The networks shove it down our throats. Does anyone stop and think maybe, JUST MAYBE, if we turned off the television and got our fat, lazy American asses out of our chairs and into the world that the networks would take notice?

You say, "z0mg! Big, fat, greasy, heart-attack-in-a-bag caused 9/11!" but do you step back and think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, if you didn't give your money to such establishments and chose to make your own food at home instead of giving in to the "life of convenience" that we've grown so accustomed to the food establishments would change their menus to something healthier?

You can't blame the government for everything. It always, eventually falls on our shoulders, individually. The government isn't shoving Big Macs and The Bachelor down your throat. You're choosing to give in to that lifestyle and thereby strengthening the hold that the networks and fast food chains have on you. We have to educate ourselves and make our own decisions. But we, as a people, have instead chosen to hand that power over to other people with ulterior motives. And we're happy that way... because research and thinking is HARD! And we just don't have time for it between the ADD meds, Big Macs, Survivor and generally living the lifestyle that we've chosen.

PS: The TV you want exists... it's called the Discovery Channel, The History Channel, etc. The key is you have to search it out instead of sitting back and waiting on someone to hand it to you, as we all seem to think we're entitled to.

As they say... TINSTAAFL

Thank you, Bam.

Really Bam, I am inclined to disagree. This history channel is a joke, who here thinks that "UFO Hunters" or "Monster Quest" is history?

Oh, everything else... yup, that is pretty much right on. :P

I happen to enjoy much of what's shown on THC. The key, though, is educating yourself. I, obviously, don't sit there and let every show spoon feed me whatever agenda they have. I watch it, I take things that I find interesting and I do my own further research.

The shows are there to make you think for yourself, not to do the thinking for you.

But, to be fair, I've never watched MonsterQuest or UFO Hunters. I tend to spend more time on the biblical shows for some reason. I think I was a Vatican conspiracy theorist in a past life or something.

quote:

Originally posted by -GhOst-:
Really Bam, I am inclined to disagree. This history channel is a joke, who here thinks that "UFO Hunters" or "Monster Quest" is history?

There are plenty of other and better shows on the history channel (not that I ever watched "UFO Hunters" or "Monster Quest" - not my cup of coffee). They are fine for visuals, you can always skip sensational, misguiding, and purely entertaining parts of them and do your own research. Books and stuff, you know.