Thank you,Texas. I hope those kids don't go back into that compound.
Child Protective Services took a necessary risk in seizing FLDS kids
04:55 PM CDT on Thursday, April 17, 2008
The state of Texas took a big risk when it removed more than 400 kids from the polygamous separatist compound in West Texas, and even more when the decision was made to isolate the older children from their mothers.
It risked a crushing burden on its own perennially strained Child Protective Services apparatus. It risked a chaotic and protracted court fight.
It risked a tornadic storm of criticism – one Texas-based advocate for parents of children in the child-welfare system, incredibly, was quoted by ABC News as likening the state’s actions to "the Nazis and how the parents and children were divided on the train platforms." Also Online
San Angelo court holds child welfare hearings for YFZ Ranch families
Tell us: Did CPS do the right thing?
In short, there’s not much of an upside for the state. Not much, besides the protection of some of our least visible and most vulnerable citizens.
Looking the other way while the secretive FLDS (not, for the thousandth time, to be confused with mainstream Mormons) flourished in isolation was a long-held policy in Arizona and Utah, where the splinter group is concentrated.
Those states were understandably wary of the investigatory obstacles deliberately constructed by the sect, and of the political consequences of separating entire communities of children from their parents.
So for years, they practiced discreet inaction, treating the FLDS as a wacky but benign order of sectarian oddballs on par with communal nudists or free-love herbivores.
But there’s ample evidence that what they were overlooking was infinitely more disturbing: A creepy authoritarian cult that favored older men with sexual access to underage girls in the guise of multiple "spiritual wives." An isolated community where children are conditioned from infancy to accept abuse and degradation. A self-governed, self-policing enclave that ignores the laws and safeguards that regulate most of us.
"The fact that this has been going on all these years, and the fact that justice has not been there to protect women and children … from amazing civil rights violations – it is an embarrassment," Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff told the Los Angeles Times in 2006. "I don’t want to indict the states of Utah and Arizona, but mea culpa – we are responsible."
The Times exhaustively documented evidence that the group’s leader, the now-imprisoned "prophet" Warren Jeffs, personally assigned underage "wives" to older men (including himself). It cited the group’s practice of banishing teenage boys and young men to restrict the pool of marriageable males.
Most disturbingly, it found claims of domestic violence, child molestation and incest that were allegedly covered up by church leaders.
And as media scrutiny intensified in Arizona and Utah, the sect started construction on its new compound in Texas.
Listen, we are accustomed to storming City Hall in protest if a harried caseworker returns an abused child to an unrepentant mother or if a convicted child molester is paroled into our neighborhood.
Do we have a different standard for the protection of children who are kept out of sight by a secretive cult?
Do we leave children in the care of blindly obedient mothers who may have acquiesced to the rape of their daughters because they were subjected to similar treatment themselves?
There is no doubt that it’s traumatic for children to be separated from their families, questioned by strangers, placed in foster care.
One of the few even more traumatic scenarios I can imagine would be to endure a lifetime of brainwashing, abuse and sexual enslavement.
There’s not an ideal alternative here, no choices that aren’t certain to mean hardship and censure.
But if we don’t act, mea culpa – we are responsible. _________________
So the governments stepping on someones religious beliefs again?
From the woods Pendragon-born, I rose Arcturius A proud, audacious King mantled in the vehemence of lust Death and destiny undaunted me, I drew a throne divided In awe of the glorious battles won, my dark Goddess provided Then treachery, a wingless beast, came crawling to my court And now I lie at cursed Camlann, from wounds a traitor wrought
Morganna art thou near me? Languid, I wend my path to grave Cast my sword to the sulphyd grasp Of the naiad neath the silvered lake When waters stirred lay silent Mistress let the mists descend Or our souls entwined like vein upon The haunted shores of Avalon
well, the last I heard, Mormons are a religious group.
From the woods Pendragon-born, I rose Arcturius A proud, audacious King mantled in the vehemence of lust Death and destiny undaunted me, I drew a throne divided In awe of the glorious battles won, my dark Goddess provided Then treachery, a wingless beast, came crawling to my court And now I lie at cursed Camlann, from wounds a traitor wrought
Morganna art thou near me? Languid, I wend my path to grave Cast my sword to the sulphyd grasp Of the naiad neath the silvered lake When waters stirred lay silent Mistress let the mists descend Or our souls entwined like vein upon The haunted shores of Avalon
That they are. But the subject of the article are not your regualr Mormons, and what they are doing goes against their own leaders, as polygamy was officially ended by LDS president Wilford Woodruff in 1890. Which reduces the said subject to a sect, and secretive sects concern any even half-sensible government. Too bad it took them so long to look into this one.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
If abuse is going on then it needs to end. But to me its extremely disturbing that Child Protection Services feels they have a right to remove 400 children of all ages from their families without an investigation. If the state can do this to them, they can do it to anyone. Just because they live in a compound does not give them a right to assume the worst. Its just heart wrenching no matter how you look at it. How they took these children from their parents is abuse also.
Originally posted by Tiger_Lily: But there’s ample evidence that what they were overlooking was infinitely more disturbing: A creepy authoritarian cult that favored older men with sexual access to underage girls in the guise of multiple "spiritual wives." An isolated community where children are conditioned from infancy to accept abuse and degradation. A self-governed, self-policing enclave that ignores the laws and safeguards that regulate most of us.
[QUOTE]
E] Most disturbingly, it found claims of domestic violence, child molestation and incest that were allegedly covered up by church leaders.
quote:
Listen, we are accustomed to storming City Hall in protest if a harried caseworker returns an abused child to an unrepentant mother or if a convicted child molester is paroled into our neighborhood.
Do we have a different standard for the protection of children who are kept out of sight by a secretive cult?
Do we leave children in the care of blindly obedient mothers who may have acquiesced to the rape of their daughters because they were subjected to similar treatment themselves?
quote:
There is no doubt that it’s traumatic for children to be separated from their families, questioned by strangers, placed in foster care.
One of the few even more traumatic scenarios I can imagine would be to endure a lifetime of brainwashing, abuse and sexual enslavement.
quote:
Here's the problem I have with all of this. Up until last night I was horrified and could understand why they removed the children. But then I saw an interview with a few of the mothers describing what happened. These people were living their lives as usual when they raided the compound, took the children and wives. They took them off on buses. They separated them by force from their children. Can you imagine if someone did this to your family?
Of coarse these are horrible allegations. But if there is evidence of all this why are the parents not in prison? This people were not served with papers explaining what the charges were.
How do we know that these allegations are true? Are all of these people in the compound victims or just a few? Was it necessary to remove all the children from their fathers and mothers?Just because we don't agree with their way of life does not mean they are abusing children. I don't agree with polygamy. But does that mean abuse is going on? I don't know. And how can the media know this.
This is really scary to me. The fact that our goverment can allow an agency to remove children like this sets a dangerous precedent.
Originally posted by Tiger_Lily: But there’s ample evidence that what they were overlooking was infinitely more disturbing: A creepy authoritarian cult that favored older men with sexual access to underage girls in the guise of multiple "spiritual wives." An isolated community where children are conditioned from infancy to accept abuse and degradation. A self-governed, self-policing enclave that ignores the laws and safeguards that regulate most of us.
[QUOTE]
E] Most disturbingly, it found claims of domestic violence, child molestation and incest that were allegedly covered up by church leaders.
quote:
Listen, we are accustomed to storming City Hall in protest if a harried caseworker returns an abused child to an unrepentant mother or if a convicted child molester is paroled into our neighborhood.
Do we have a different standard for the protection of children who are kept out of sight by a secretive cult?
Do we leave children in the care of blindly obedient mothers who may have acquiesced to the rape of their daughters because they were subjected to similar treatment themselves?
quote:
There is no doubt that it’s traumatic for children to be separated from their families, questioned by strangers, placed in foster care.
One of the few even more traumatic scenarios I can imagine would be to endure a lifetime of brainwashing, abuse and sexual enslavement.
quote:
Here's the problem I have with all of this. Up until last night I was horrified and could understand why they removed the children. But then I saw an interview with a few of the mothers describing what happened. These people were living their lives as usual when they raided the compound, took the children and wives. They took them off on buses. They separated them by force from their children. Can you imagine if someone did this to your family?
Of coarse these are horrible allegations. But if there is evidence of all this why are the parents not in prison? This people were not served with papers explaining what the charges were.
How do we know that these allegations are true? Are all of these people in the compound victims or just a few? Was it necessary to remove all the children from their fathers and mothers?Just because we don't agree with their way of life does not mean they are abusing children. I don't agree with polygamy. But does that mean abuse is going on? I don't know. And how can the media know this.
This is really scary to me. The fact that our goverment can allow an agency to remove children like this sets a dangerous precedent.
The media knows this because they were told by CPS.(It's allowed)
This brave "sarah" called a abuse hotline and told them that she was 16(plus had a baby) and she was married at 15 to a 50 year old man. And that she was currently with child. She describes being beat by her husband while his other wives would watch. The hotline contacted cps and cps got a warrant. They raided the compound
All the children had to be removed because these people marry off young girls(13,14,15,16) to older men sometimes twice or even three times there age.They found paper evidence of this.They found that some under age girls were preggo or were married. They even found a sex bed for the underage girls' wedding night,in their temple.
These people were served a warrant,it's the law. These women you see on tv from the compound are coached to say the things they say. If they stray from what their husbands say, they get a beating.
The parents aren't in custody because they have like a group parentship and they don't name whose their set mom and dad. They are currently doing dna tests on everyone. So that is why no one is in jail. Oh the women had a choice to go with the kids, The males usually stay out of public eye.
Posts: 648 | Location: NY,My Living Room, | Registered: January 01, 2007
It's a no win situation for CPA. They would be criticized harshly if they did not act immediately, and they are criticized for what they do. Not that I feel that CPA is a fluffy-white, stain-free institution.
On the interview with Moms who said that they were leading normal life: consider the source. Their definition of "normal" may be different from conventional one. The order where younger males are banished to allow older ones to breed as they please does not seem normal to me. It's does not sound too spiritual either. And if all was well and benign, why the dire need to be secretive? As George Albert Smith, a Mormon leader, said: "If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." Very true, IMHO.
CPA does have too much power that it does not know how to use properly, like any big bureaucratic machine that forgets that it deals with human beings and not just numbers. But in this case, the search and arrest warrants were issued by the police, it's not like CPA took it all upon itself to personify justice.
Did you read the interviews with the girls who were actually taken away from the compound? Does any of that sound even semi-usual? Like here:
That abuse is common in fundamentalist compounds like this one is a known fact, known not from the media but from those who escaped the compounds, yet most officials prefer to turn a blind eye to all that because it's not politically correct to investigate a "religious" organization. To hell with the fact that this particular organization defies almost every part of the Mormon doctrine or turns them inside out to meet very mundane needs of their local leaders. Quite amazing things can flourish under the motto of religious freedom. That precisely the reason why the male leaders of compounds do whatever they want to to their own family members and aren't reported. That's why it's kosher and hip to entangle every crime imaginable with Satanists, but try to question intentions of a fundamentalist Mormon and you will be up to your nostrils in hot water.
I read somewhere that the local community came to what was called "a difficult peace" with the inhabitants of the compound. Doesn't this beg a few questions for local authorities? Like didn't they new that the compound was a part of the movement whose founder, Warren Jeffs, is serving a sentence already for rape, performing marriages with underaged brides and what not? How likely it is for the followers to make a complete u-turn in their practices?
TW, I did not see the 400 figure anywhere, the most that was cited was under 200 and that were children removed from the compound, not put into custody.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
Originally posted by Tiger_Lily: The media knows this because they were told by CPS.(It's allowed)
This brave "sarah" called a abuse hotline and told them that she was 16(plus had a baby) and she was married at 15 to a 50 year old man. And that she was currently with child. She describes being beat by her husband while his other wives would watch. The hotline contacted cps and cps got a warrant. They raided the compound
All the children had to be removed because these people marry off young girls(13,14,15,16) to older men sometimes twice or even three times there age.They found paper evidence of this.They found that some under age girls were preggo or were married. They even found a sex bed for the underage girls' wedding night,in their temple.
quote:
This fact is news to me. As I've been reading about this news coverage, the last I heard was she had not been identified. Neither have I heard those details.
quote:
These people were served a warrant,it's the law. These women you see on tv from the compound are coached to say the things they say. If they stray from what their husbands say, they get a beating.
quote:
Do we know this for a fact? Or do they have evidence of this?
quote:
The parents aren't in custody because they have like a group parentship and they don't name whose their set mom and dad. They are currently doing dna tests on everyone. So that is why no one is in jail.
quote:
And we know this how? That does not excuse it to me.
quote:
Oh the women had a choice to go with the kids, The males usually stay out of public eye.
I don't believe that. None of the mothers choose to go with their children because of their domineering husbands? The news stated that only the mothers of children 4 or 5 could go with their kids.Surely some of them would choose to escape that lifestyle.
No one has to explain to me what domestic violence is about. This is an issue that is very close to my heart for numerous reasons. I have been through it. Luckily I found a great husband and have 2 children. It broke my heart listening to those mothers and hearing the story in the first place. Their answers left alot of questions. Surely you wouldn't think I think abuse is ok.
Here's the thing. These are allegations. When I was a child my parents were falsely accused of child abuse so I know a little about this too. Child Protective Services is not a flawless agency mind you. If what your saying is true, then is it not possible some of the mothers were victims too?
I'm not saying your wrong, or I'm wrong or whatever. What I am saying is this is a horribly tragic case and its easy for us to assume the worst because we don't understand these people. There is so much more going on with this case than I'm sure we are being told.
If these allegations are true, I don't think our jails can do justice for these children. But trying to be openminded, I know that the media does not always portray the truth or all the facts of the case.
My point is we don't know all the facts of this case and cannot always trust the media or CPS for that matter. Look into CPS and you'll see what I mean. It just sucks no matter how you look at it. I want whats best for those kids. I surely don't want them abused. But even if the "fathers" are so bad, I don't feel that removing them from their mothers was the answer also. Surely I can disagree with the way it was handled and be thinking of the children's best interests also. We are just interpreting it differently.
Originally posted by CoffeeOwl: CPA does have too much power that it does not know how to use properly, like any big bureaucratic machine that forgets that it deals with human beings and not just numbers. But in this case, the search and arrest warrants were issued by the police, it's not like CPA took it all upon itself to personify justice.
Did you read the interviews with the girls who were actually taken away from the compound? Does any of that sound even semi-usual? Like here:
That abuse is common in fundamentalist compounds like this one is a known fact, known not from the media but from those who escaped the compounds, yet most officials prefer to turn a blind eye to all that because it's not politically correct to investigate a "religious" organization.
I read somewhere that the local community came to what was called "a difficult peace" with the inhabitants of the compound. Doesn't this beg a few questions for local authorities? Like didn't they new that the compound was a part of the movement whose founder, Warren Jeffs, is serving a sentence already for rape, performing marriages with underaged brides and what not? How likely it is for the followers to make a complete u-turn in their practices?
Thank you for posting that CO. This case is just heart breaking and its sickening if it turns out this has been going on for years and no one did anything until now. And by the way, I have not seen any articles with what the girls who have been removed have said. Thats why I have read and listened to what I can catch about this case. I'm trying to hear all angles on it.
Yes, it's sickening and heartbreaking, the whole story. No matter how you look at it - poor kids, poor girls forced to be mothers. And the damn political correctness that makes people who could help to prevent the tragedy to become deaf and blind. The whole states pretending that nothing extraordinary was happening on their land.
~~~~~~~ CoffeeOwl
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ~ Author unknown ~
Posts: 4828 | Location: Outskirts of Silicon Valley, California | Registered: April 05, 2006
Originally posted by CoffeeOwl: Yes, it's sickening and heartbreaking, the whole story. No matter how you look at it - poor kids, poor girls forced to be mothers. And the damn political correctness that makes people who could help to prevent the tragedy to become deaf and blind. The whole states pretending that nothing extraordinary was happening on their land.
And now it comes to this and the children suffer the most. Its scary when you think that things like this happen in the US and we can be oblivious until we hear about it on the news.
